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DISCUSSION TIEMS

Hello Singularity!

In an effort to get everything renovated and working smoothly, along with policies, we're also looking to renovate certain game mechanics. One thing we've noticed is there's been some confusion over how the Credit System works.

Credits are not a monetary system. By that we mean, once gained credits cannot be lost unless transferred to another resident (or if Hypatia feels really mean, taken away by her). How do they work? It's really pretty simple. Pretty much credits are less money and more of an 'access system'. There are no payments being made when credits are being used.

Residents who do not have the sufficient amount of credits for the services or items they want are barred from even accessing those buildings. For example, if your character only has 5 credits but wants to stay at a swanky hotel... Well, sorry. They won't even be allowed inside.

Proposed change: Changing credits from an access system to a multiplier for currency. For example, a character with 100 credits would be getting an allowance of say, 100k (Note, this isn't set in stone). This would allow purpose for the creation and running of businesses (and also auctions!) for reasons other than "bored and in need of a hobby. Currency would also allow characters with low or no credits the ability to obtain/buy high quality items just by earning money through other means (Don't want to work for the AI? Well you can still earn money being a bar tender/waitress for another resident).

Other suggestions are also welcome. We're also willing to answer other questions about the game setting (rather than policies) in this post and take other suggestions for possible changes.

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does this mean alejandro could start charging and get rich

Suckee suckee five dollah

FUCK YOU ALTMAN I DON'T HEAR TUCKER OR DONUT BITCHING

So you're just a slut, then.

And you're a prude virgin. Guess we can't all be winners.

Edited 2011-08-22 08:10 (UTC)

While I'm all for adding in capitalist ventures, I do feel this could potentially start mucking things up. For example, right now credits allow you to stay in a pretty swank house instead of making money. Would all resources that are credit-based (i.e. housing, food, robomaid, etc.) change over to a rent-based system? Currently, with your credits, you gain access to all that bracket's worth of materials. Would this be changed? i.e. a house is about 20 cred's worth of salary, so if you move straight into a higher tier you can't afford food, or... and so on?

I understand that it'd still be pretty handwavy, but I think this does start complicating what was before a pretty clean system a little. Just my two cents on the topic - once again, I do like the idea of some sort of salary system to allow for lucrative businesses for those who want to manage that sort of thing. (More freedom = awesome!) The only issue I have is that if the credit system already confuses players on occasion, the salary system may lead to more confusion (whether people assume it to be a core game mechanic or something similar) than before.

Edited 2011-08-21 21:56 (UTC)

Pretty much we'd try to make the the changeover as easy as we could possibly make it.

There'd still be free facilities for newcomers, of course. The only thing people would have to figure out is what salary bracket they're in, and they'd still be able to afford all the things they currently can.

In the current system, credits cannot be pooled together. For example, a person who has 6 credits who is living with a person with 3 credits doesn't mean they have a household credit size of 9 credits. It means one person has 6, the other has 3, and they can afford things as such. Changing to the allowance system would allow roommates to work together money-wise.

Currently, the Striders are actually doing just that - they tossed their credits to Dave, who takes care of most financial transactions as the "money-holder." It's slightly more complicated than just paying the rent individually, but it basically amounts to the same thing.

In that case, it seems like it functions pretty much identically to the current credit system and is different in name / "flavor" only. That's another thing I agree with Alba down there on - I actually am fond of the current way credits are dealt with on a setting basis too. There's also the idea that credits can be offered as a form of currency, it's just a lot more valuable than, say, a month's worth of salary.

Either way, though, I'm down with whatever is chosen like I mentioned on Plurk. These are just my thoughts on the issue! :V

Honestly, I actually like the current credit system. It's not really a typical economical system, but I LOVE the uniqueness of it for this setting. It makes sense and makes things a little easier to figure out before we start defining things like penny pinching.

pretty much this.

After being in Amat with the money system there, I have to say this is so much nicer. 8( I'M ALL FOR CHANGE AND STUFF but I'm just like B-BUT THINGS ARE NICE NOW. /DELICATE FLOWER.

Edited to say that I'm not opposed to it, hahaha, I'm just like /NAM FLASHBACKS TO AMAT MONEY WOES

Edited 2011-08-21 22:33 (UTC)

As someone who plays a money-grubbing bastard and has had issues with games that have zero economy, I like the idea of a monetary system. (Of course, this is me showing my bias.) I'd just find that it's yet another point for character motivation, and motivation can be hard to find in a jamjar, especially if your character doesn't have a big group of friends whose issues they can feed off of. On top of that, I find the current credit system kind of confusing, especially in terms of doing stuff like having a character open a business, or what happens when one character wants to pay another for items or help or something.

With the current credit system, opening a business really has no benefit to the owner aside from having something to do. They gain no profit out of it. There's no money being spent or exchanged and nobody is being paid. Gathering the items to run/give out at the business is also at no cost for them, since everything is 'free' if you have the credit perks to have access to them.

Characters cannot be paid in any which way unless credits are transferred (or a person with bigger credit perks trades off something that a person who has smaller credit perks cannot obtain on their own.)

Yeah the way it is seems kind of... I don't know. Limiting. What's really keeping characters from working one job that'll get them a few credits then just sitting on their asses for the rest of the time they're at the station? Unless they manage to find enough inter-character drama to keep themselves busy, it's kind of... boring. I guess what I'm saying is that a monetary system, maybe even one where credits expire or something, would provide a little bit more conflict and keep characters who give a damn about these kinds of things going.

I think either system has its merits, and I did always like the old system, but everyone seemed to treat it like a normal sort of a monetary system, so I was often confused as to whether or not it worked the way you outlined up there.

It may have been a case of being poorly explained in the infotext?

I have no particular strong feelings about changing the system, except to ask that all the particulars be laid out super-idiot's-guide clearly. I do have a thing with wanting auctions to be capable of happening, but at the same time I always did like the old system, since (at the very least) it didn't require regular "Let's wait for mod approval before saying our character can buy milk" job board visits.

tl;dr - either is fine, just requesting to have ALL DETAILS CLARIFIED FOREVER on whichever.

If we go through with changing the credits from a pass system to an allowance system, the job board isn't really going away as credits can still be obtained from it.

The change pretty much will just give an estimate of periodic income based on credit multiplier.

Ex. 5 credits gets you an income of, idk, 500 monopoly monies a week to spend. It will be roughly the same equivalent of the stuff a character would have access to in the current system, but with the benefit of say--

A character pays that character 200 monopoly monies that week for helping perm their hair. That week they have the equivalent of having 7 credits of money! whoohoo!

/makes everything more confusing

I see! So in the new system, credits would be considered as given out for extraordinary services. they represent your wage, not your actual moneys.

But in this system, you can accrue monopoly monies? Or must you spend them on food, rent and the like, as well?

Yep! New system would change credits to represent your wage. Think of it as a social security type income. Something set. The character is going to keep getting that money even if their lazy ass never finds a real job. Credits will still be obtained by doing services for the station (or stealing/counterfeiting in the case of some).

But, on the side, characters would be free to gather more monopoly monies by doing work for other residents. Pretty much, they could be paid for favors/doing stuff instead of getting a pat on the back and a beer they could probably get on their own anyway.

And they would also be capable of running out of money, which I feel is an important point and one in this system's favor.

I mean....yknow. Until payday.

This is a good system, I like it. So long as it's made super extra clear. Maybe moneys and credits and housing should get its own infopost separate from the rest of the info. Unless it already has one!

I for one support anything that will make the establishment of the Sacrosanct Illegal Lobster Fighting League a reality.

Okay I'm with this change if based on nothing but this comment alone.

Ladon totally wants in on this gambling racket.

Basically this, except they'll be in little uniforms named after the zone they're from.

I think the system as it exists suits the flavor of the setting far better than the proposed alternative does. People are maybe getting hung up on the fact that credits aren't particularly granular? One credit is worth a lot. But adding granularity would also add a great deal of complication. Maybe the option of "breaking out" a credit into smaller units of exchange to be used between the residents? I dunno.

I have a slight preference for keeping things as they are, but as long as I can continue to completely ignore the economic system, I don't care strongly enough to protest a change.

Edited 2011-08-21 23:58 (UTC)

Flynn, what's money? o_o

(In all honesty though, I've been pretty much ignoring the credit system since y'know, this guy here has no concept of it. So however the thing goes he'll have to figure it out one way or another, or just keep ~~mooching off Flynn~~ living in the Tronhaus with no worries.)

Edited 2011-08-23 19:37 (UTC)

An inefficient and inequitable method of managing system resources, why do you ask?

Flynn's okay with being mooched off.

I like the current system, but am in favor of it being more clearly explained so people don't get confused. I'd also like more jobs for the characters to do on a somewhat regular basis (perhaps a monthly jobs update or something along those lines)?

wait, does this mean Chellbot (zero credits) shouldn't actually be *able* to live in Chell's apartment?

oh, but that said, I like the current system. Less to keep track of as a player for one thing.

Technically, yes.

Whoops. Yeah, I can see the need for clarity then.

... Would it boot someone out who was trying to *visit* someone's residence outside of their credit range? It kind of sounds that way.

yeah, i wasn't sure about that, either... i assumed that the person owning/renting the place would be able to house whoever they wanted? but, if that's not the case... :(

i vote keeping it the way it is because i'm excited as hell to get my hands in it.

which is weird to say on this account but you know.

idk keeping up with money makes me want to rip my face off.

Iiiii personally like the current system? I mean, the problem with adding money to any game is that nobody wants to spend their RP time crunching numbers and even if it's more realistic, it's kind of a pain in the ass. I'd bet people would end up ignoring the currency system the same way some people ignore the credit system.

It would be a lot simpler to just remind people how credits work and let them run businesses how they want? People can just trade items (like the example of someone with 7 credits getting a 6 or less credit person something they can't access) or give whole credits for larger trades. Just remind everyone that credits are worth more since they don't expire or get used up when dealing with the station.

one more vote for the current system, here. i think that the main issue is just clearing up what it actually is a bit better on the page, rather than trying to add more to it.

monetary systems are fun to mess with, at first. what ends up happening is, in my experience in other games, there's a nice rush of everyone keeping nice little notes of what was spent, how much was made, what things cost, how much their rent was, etc, for a while...

...but then everyone realizes that that's just boring and most of us to that on a day-to-day basis with our jobs and stuff irl LMFAO. so, i mean, it's a nice thing to play around with for a while..?? but in a game setting, the current credits system is just... easier. more streamlined and definitely unique, as far as i'm concerned. i haven't really seen another game with a system quite like this, and once i figured it out, i was pleasantly surprised! i really like this system a lot!

...but, like i said, a lot of games try to enforce the monetary system method... but at the end of the day, it's just sort of ... there, because most people, i find, just handwave most of it anyway and therefore, there's no real point? especially since mods can't keep up with every single player's monetary transactions, and can't guarantee 100% someone's not gonna fudge up or (intentionally or otherwise) cheat the system.

and with the current job systems, since credits are, to me, more of a level-up system than anything else, players can be like "oh, my character only needs a few more credits to unlock such-and-such!" and that motivates them to have their character take up a task/job (not to mention much smaller numbers to work with that are constant, unlike a monetary system where prices of items/housing would, i'd assume, fluctuate, much like a salary/wage would fluctuate depending on where one was employed).

whereas, with a currency system, it's like... the character is typically doing the same job, day in and day out. no variety, if that makes sense? from a CR standpoint, having a character take different tasks/jobs depending on the day, or whatever, gives more opportunity to get ideas for posts/plots/stuff to talk about vs. "oh i do the same job every day, no point in elaborating."

so, yeah. i don't really think compounding the current system is entirely necessary? if anything, it would make it more confusing, and already i'm not entirely sure what it is you guys are seeking to employ. credits and currency?? it's kind of redundant, in my opinion, and would just get confusing, especially when throwing transactions into the mix.

That's pretty much what happened in my previous game, currency-wise. No one bothered to keep track after a little while.

One more vote for the current system. I have enough difficulty remembering where Nepeta lives most days, I don't think I could brain actual money. orz

I never realized that characters couldn't pool credits under the current system, or that people without enough credits to access certain buildings wouldn't be able to live there even with a roommate who did have the correct amount of credits. So apparently all my characters have been doing it wrong all this time - they all either were or are living with someone who has more credits than them, or earning credits themselves and then housing people with none.

Basically this means that you can't have a 'breadwinner,' and people who are already settled when their friends show up through the rift can't take them in. Whether the system is changed to a currency/'allowance' type one or not, would there be any way to change this, or at least make the rules more clear? The last time I posted a job request for one of my characters, I specifically mentioned that Logan would be using his credits to help house all of the mutants, and was never told that that wouldn't be possible. So it seems there may be some confusion on the mods' end too, or at least, this isn't getting enforced at all.

Personally I'd prefer it if the status quo was changed so that 'rich' characters could help and provide for their friends, or that credits could be pooled together - with the strong preference people on Sacrosanct seem to have to live in communal housing situations (Spartan Base, Tronhaus, the Normandy Base, the trollhive) it seems unfortunate that new characters from these casts arriving through the rift/people they want to take in wouldn't be able to move in until they'd earned enough credits to afford it.

Yeah, that sounds super weird to me. People like Flynn who are cheating can just cheat harder and make all their friends rich, so it's not a problem for them, but it does seem to penalize characters who aren't hackers.

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