singularityooc | Policy Discussion

Personally, I don't have a problem with the rules as they are. I spoke with the mods about my AUs before I apped them - it probably helps that they're both relatively minor, but I didn't have a problem getting in with them.

However, I disagree with the "content of an AU shouldn't matter, only writing should matter". While writing quality is important and should not be understated, it's unfair to current cast members to have to deal with an AU that's seriously out of place with their current canon; for example, an AU where Aang from Avatar gets captured, tortured and brainwashed by the Fire Nation and becomes a bitter, angry avenger. While this would be a really interesting AU to explore, it would make things really difficult for our existing and any future Avatar casts because the tone is so extremely different from the original canon--and yet they wouldn't ignore him without being OOC. And this wouldn't apply to only current castmates, who may all approve of an idea as a case-to-case basis--but future potential appers anyway. As I understand it, that's the main reason for the "better off as fanfic" idea. If your Aang is so different from canon Aang that he's barely recognizable, just app an OC. Going in with pre-established CR is great...but forcing other people into CR they may not be comfortable is not great.

/$0.02

I think that's just another example of an AU that wouldn't work on an individual level? Though my wording would be less "only writing should matter" and more "only characterization should matter." Since Aang is a kind-hearted, cheerful character, even if you can explain the change it's still a drastic change in personality, and I think it would be fair to reject it for going too far from how he acts in canon.

idk, I guess basically what I've been saying is not to write off a whole category of potential AUs just because some of those AUs wouldn't work? Saying "his personality is way too different" is also a better/more specific reason for rejection compared to "this would be better as a fanfic."

That's the essential part of any AU, really, of course - you should be able to still see Aang as Aang, whether he's Aang of the Air Tribe, Aang of the Water Tribe, or Aang the Last Jedi Master. However, it's unfair to Luke Skywalker to have Aang the Last Jedi Master--and it's unfair to Katara to have Aang be come from a radically different society so they no longer have much of anything in common. Does that make sense?

I understand your point, and I do agree entirely, and that's the reason for "filing off the numbers" as Teal has put it. Aang wouldn't be the Last Jedi Master, maybe he'd still be called the Avatar and he just has different powers similar to Jedis, or his powers are the same and he's just in space. In a good AU, there would still be connections and similarities to canon so as not to make things too awkward with canon castmates. Maybe it's just Avatar in space with slightly more Fire Nation-built Death Stars!

The same could be said for any canon AU as well, ex. pretty much every comic ever with all those reboots and personality changes and etc. If someone played one version of Batman against a different version of Robin with differing personalities/backgrounds, would that be unfair as well?

I'd also like to point out now that I'm not trying to say AUs like mine and Zae's Elfen Lied/Homestuck thing should be the norm, because even I think that's a little too close to the second canon. I'm more for allowing AUs that use different settings, which can often be inspired by other canons, because there is pretty much a book/movie/game for everything. Avatar in space would be a cool AU. Aang the Last Jedi Master might be pushing it a bit too much, though.

Avatar in Space would be a pretty cool AU, if done well. The problem as I see it would be that it's unfair to his castmates to expect them to accept Aang as their Aang and not someone with the same name who has a similar background--which is the whole point of AUs to me, to have someone be essentially the same no matter what you change in their background. Asking Zuko to accept that Aang was an Earthbender in his universe is probably easier for Zuko to swallow than it is to ask Zuko to accept Appa the Space Bison Ship, Aang from planet Air, etc.

Again, as I see it the problem is not with the AU concepts but from how appropriate it is to accept them into a game with people from a canon that's potentially vastly different.

Regarding Batman and Robin, which comes up as a natural example from something with so many versions of canons, well, it probably would be ridiculous for Christian Bale Batman to meet up with Adam West Batman's sidekick Robin--but I think it's a lot easier to keep a handle on what they can affect without outright banning any canons, which nobody wants.

To be honest? I think wanting castmates to accept an AU character as the canon character would be a little silly. Wouldn't that make it more awkward if there was both an AU and a canon version? To use an example already in the game, we have our canon Karkat and our AU Karkat. They are clearly not the same person anymore, and if AU!Karkat apped in first I don't think the current cast would immediately accept him as "their Karkat," but as a different Karkat, or at least one set far enough in the future to not really be the one they remember. If we had an AU Karkat that acted exactly the same but was human, I still don't think his castmates would immediately accept him as a replacement for canon Karkat.

When a game allows AUs, sometimes you're going to accept AU characters that might turn off potential canon applicants. This is why there are also games that don't accept AUs. If someone isn't comfortable playing with AU characters, I'm not sure why they would join a game that accepts them. In some cases, yes, changes can be too extreme and it could turn out incredibly awkward for castmates. SpaceAang could be so wildly different his castmates wouldn't know how to react. He could also be from a well-written AU with more than enough parallels to break the ice and make it easier for everyone to understand eachother and all that.

Basically, what I keep saying: an AU app shouldn't be judged on the base concept, but on its execution.

Coming from a canon where AUs and duplicates are more common than canon versions (Red vs. Blue), my experience has been different. We more or less have accepted everyone as being the "real" versions of the characters, only from different timelines (which is actually possible in the canon thanks to a certain character's ability to loop time and case multiple timelines; sound familiar?), and I'm just stating things as I see them from my point of view. If someone were to app a...say a Civil War Red vs. Blue character, they wouldn't have the same kind of intrinsic cast acceptance that I could see, and isn't interacting with an existing cast one of the main reasons people app from specific fandoms anyway? Regardless of how well-developed the Civil War Red vs. Blue AU was, it could still be very off-putting to existing cast members who didn't study the Civil War and have no idea what any of the specific terminology means--a problem they wouldn't have with an AU that sticks closely to canon.

Well, when you're dealing with AUs there are obviously going to be times when canon characters don't understand things. I don't think that makes it impossible to interact with them. If an AU character used different terminology, it would only take explaining a few things and maybe a few silly threads before that got worked out. I don't think other muns would be expected to do much research on another character's canon either-- unless it's knowledge the canon character would have anyway, they wouldn't be expected to know those things.

When AUs are involved, there's going to be some confusion for canon characters, but that's just something that comes with AUs. It's an easily solved problem most of the time, and I think you're underestimating most canon characters' ability to interact with AUs. To use my own AU as an example, Jack's background is insanely different from Homestuck's canon, but everyone still recognizes him as the stab-happy asshole he is. I suppose I can't speak for everyone else, but I've yet to see or receive any complaints about him being difficult to interact with due to his differing background, and I haven't had the impression of such either. Once castmates got over the fact that he was squishy human Jack who likes beaches, they pretty much accepted that as Weird Alternate Universe Shit and moved on.

(no subject)

alaspooryork - 2011-08-15 16:46 (UTC) - Expand

+1

Basically seconding what Jack-mun said. That sort of AU would be fair to reject because, although interesting in concept, Aang becoming a bitter, angry avenger wouldn't be very good characterization, seeing as how that would go against all of his lifelong beliefs.

But, for example, if he came out of that Fire Nation torture severely shaken, more somber, with a better understanding of his enemy, what they're capable of, and what they're willing to do, that would be more understandable given his character.

So while seemingly bad ideas could be pulled off well by someone who really examines the character, good ideas could seem like really bad ones based on how the particular person implements the changes. Aang as a bitter, angry avenger in this AU would fall into the latter.

It would work as an AU - I'm not debating that. I'm saying it would be unfair to expect his castmates to have to deal with an Aang who wanted to talk about his torture at the hands of the Fire Nation, which is why it might not be appropriate for a panfandom game. it would be an AU idea better explored in a fanfic/musebox/etc.

Hmmm, I don't think that's really of concern to the app process and how apps are handled, though. A:TLA characters may not want to deal with the awkwardness of having such an AU!Aang, but they also may not want to deal with Azula--does that mean Azula should not be allowed to be applied for either? If anything, these issues are ones that should be worked out ICly, I think.

Restricting AU apps because it might make current characters feel uncomfortable doesn't seem fair to the applicant, since situations in which characters feel uncomfortable can be created with OU characters and canonmates as well. The AU applicants have as much right to play their characters out as anyone else.

Couldn't have put it as well myself.

I play Sokka in another game, and frankly, playing against bitter!avenger!Aang is something that would make me unhappy and uncomfortable as a player in addition to making my character uncomfortable. I am then faced with two choices: avoid and ignore the AU Aang, which would be out of character, or force myself to play with this character I don't care for.

It's not just about the characters; it's about the players, too.

I think that's similarly up to the players to work out and reach a compromise. You and the AU-mun can agree to disagree and not have your characters interact, and if so, rarely--concessions for this sort of thing can be made. But I don't think it should be a deciding factor in whether or not the AU app is accepted or not.

The apps are there to filter out the characters who are being played well from the characters who aren't. If the AU character is being played well, then they should be allowed into the game. From there, it's up to the players to work out these issues.

Alternatively: I only just remembered this, but I've been in some AU-friendly games where mods will check in with canonmates of the AU character in question to weigh in on their opinions on the app. Obviously, the mods have final say, but asking for feedback from current canonmates, if there are any, can help weed the good from the bad as well.

It can be OOC simply for canonmates to not interact, though. For example, if an AU version of John Connor apped, no matter what the change was, it would be very OOC for Sarah Connor to ignore him - whether I as her player was comfortable with the AU or not. Avoiding interaction between canonmates can work in some instances, in the same way that someone can app two canonmates and have them never interact. But if the characters are related or otherwise have close relationships in canon, simply avoiding each other in game sometimes really isn't an option.

I disagree that the comfort of existing players shouldn't be a factor - even, in some cases, a deciding one - in which AUs are accepted. There is a precedent for player comfort being taken into account when looking at dark or controversial apps in Sing, and while I don't think apps should be policed, per say, or that canonmates should always have veto power over what new apps are accepted, I'm also kind of uncomfortable with the idea that any AU should be accepted as long as it's well written enough. I don't think there's anything wrong with the comfort of the existing playerbase, and the feasibility of character interactions once in the game, being considered when looking at apps.

...I'm also not sure why anyone would want to app an AU that made canonmates so uncomfortable/were so radically different than what they could cope with that the muns had to agree to avoid interaction IC. I don't really see the point of apping into a cast that you can't play with.

I disagree; apps aren't there simply to make sure the writing is up to scratch. It's also to make sure that the character will be a good fit with the rest of the game.

Personally, I don't see what's wrong with consulting a cast before dealing an acceptance to an AU app that could cause problems. If the current cast has an issue with it, I think it's fair to disallow the AU since it's difficult for canon castmates to avoid AU castmates most of the time.

Comfort of existing players is important, but it's better to, well... ask, rather than assume. Maybe the castmates really like an AU, maybe some of them don't, just assuming one way or the other is a little unfair for everyone. In a case where there is no existing cast, as long as the AU is played well I don't see why canon characters that don't exist in the game yet and might never exist should be put above AU applicants.

Sorry for kinda throwing this in the middle here (hi nathan mun hi), but. I guess I'm getting the impression from a lot of people that they are uncomfortable with AUs that are not slight deviations from a canon? I don't know, I can't really argue with that since it's only an opinion, but if Singularity is supposed to be a game that accepts AUs I think its a bit on the silly side to hold such a strictly-canon mindset in general. I haven't played in too many AU games myself, but I've had the impression that a lot of communication between casts is involved just to avoid problems like AU characters that canon castmates don't want. If someone is just against the idea of an AU character they might not be able to treat like a canon one, I'm not sure why they would choose to app at a game that accepts AUs in the first place. It's supposed to be one of the reasons people come to games like sing.

I'm really repeating myself now, but just because more drastic changes in AUs might be allowed doesn't mean ones that are difficult to interact with should be accepted. I just think this is something that would be better and more fairly dealt with on an individual basis. If something can cause problems, that doesn't mean it will every time, and that doesn't make it fair to reject entire categories of AUs just because not all of them will work. These are specific problems that can be easily addressed without resorting to "you changed too much."

The difference here is that avoiding a canon character your character dislikes is IC. Wanting nothing to do with Azula is totally IC for, say, Toph. It's not IC for her to avoid Aang - any Aang.

Again, I'm not saying AU people don't have a right to play out their AUs. I have two AU characters myself. The problem is when it becomes so radically different from canon that it affects other players, because canon versions of characters shouldn't feel uncomfortable playing their versions of characters either.

I think this in particular comes back to a tonal shift. At the end of the day, no matter how you swing it, A:TLA is a children's show. That means the characters don't go around saying 'fuck' or 'damn' or 'shit', they don't get hideously tortured and at the end of the day, they win the good fight. They have their quandaries and their hardships, but even though A:TLA is a fairly mature show overall, that deals with mature themes, it's still at its core meant for children. I think conserving tone is every bit as important as conserving characterization in an AU.

For example. Suddenly, in Canterlot, aliens attack! And all the ponies have spent the last five years fighting in a brutal alien war! Rainbow Dash suddenly has an eyepatch, and maybe Fluttershy is missing a limb and etc et al - of course this is a fairly extreme example (and as you mentioned, the characterization would be what suffers there) but the tone is so drastically different that even if you did manage to write ALIENS ATTACKING CANTERLOT in the world's most IC, compelling way possible, the change in tone would still have the potential to make people uncomfortable, because they come expecting ADORABLE FRIENDSHIP PONY POWERS and they get greeted with Fluttershy having a bionic gun-leg or something.

Essentially, because RP is a collaborative writing effort, it's not always necessarily about what one player wants to do. Because while playing grimdark, somber Aang might be extremely fun for the mun - and maybe even for a few other people who like exploring those options, I know I certainly wouldn't want to have to interact with an Aang like that if I were playing a castmate. As someone who's played Zuko (a million years ago and very briefly), I can safely say that it would probably break my characterization of Zuko to be around that sort of Aang. That doesn't mean the other person is a bad writer, or that I myself am, it just means that I'm adhering to the characterization of a tonally different source material. Suddenly, I have to pick two options. Play Zuko as someone who's seen this sort of thing occur in the past and chosen to ignore it (and I'm talking serious heavy duty torture, not at all equivalent to Zuko being burned by his father or Aang being lightning-fuu'd by Azula), or picking to play Zuko who knows that that sort of thing doesn't happen in his world by dint of it being a world for the imaginations of children to run riot in, which means automatically that he has to react to this Aang as if he's an intruder, an imposter or simply someone entirely outside of his world or scope of experience.

TL:DR, some AUs make it hard for people to write around them based on tonal shift and source material!

Essentially how I feel on the matter. Thanks for phrasing it so well.

<3

+1.

Agreed. I'm not giving examples, but I've seen at least one AU rejected here that would qualify as "I just wouldn't feel comfortable being in a game with if I were in that cast." That kind of comfort thing shouldn't be ignored. It's one thing if it's a canon character. Not wanting a particular canon character because it'll cause you problems is dumb. You apped into the canon. You accept the whole canon. Not just what you like. But not wanting an AU for reasons like it making you uncomfortable to deal with how extreme it is is a different story completely.

I track the app page and look at it out of curiosity frequently. You see a lot that way.